tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post5169528422772603300..comments2024-03-28T21:00:41.841+00:00Comments on KEITH'S WARGAMING BLOG: Wargaming In History vol.5Keith Flinthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-85448442871605242812014-02-26T19:31:16.289+00:002014-02-26T19:31:16.289+00:00Thanks Kevin. I hope by now you have your invite t...Thanks Kevin. I hope by now you have your invite to join and are part of the group. <br /><br />Your list of variables is interesting - by all means email it to me at the address on the blog. Some of them are exactly the thing I have included in my National Differences section in the rules. Others might perhaps be more suitable to a more complex set, but I am interested all the same.<br /><br />Thanks again, Keith.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-32759936409111698622014-02-26T18:52:55.513+00:002014-02-26T18:52:55.513+00:00As I await access to the Yahoo group there are a f...As I await access to the Yahoo group there are a few things that I can jot down. The raw 'Napoleon's Battles' system [or in this case 'Frederick's Battles'] has individual ratings and capabilities for each unit type by nationality. The things that one can tinker with regarding National characteristics in this system include: quality in a 'charge situation' [depending upon formation and based on morale/ intimidation factors], +/- for firing [notional rate of fire], response number [for control of cavalry, chance to rally, avoid disorder. etc - this is reflective of training], dispersion rating [largely morale - how many causalities a unit can take before it 'picks up], base movement rates in different formations [some nationalities had a faster rate of march than others] and cost to change formation [obviously the Prussians are quite good at this!]. All in all this system gives a great deal of flexibility to express the individuality of nationalities and troop types. If you like I could e-mail you an Excel document for SYW Prussians & Austrians.KC MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17132564550526101023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-91265229311901725772014-02-23T21:01:25.386+00:002014-02-23T21:01:25.386+00:00Kevin, thanks for your comments. I would be intere...Kevin, thanks for your comments. I would be interested in your views regarding the 'National Differences' section of my SYW rules, Honours of War. You can find them at the Yahoo group, address in the eponymous post above dated 17th February.<br /><br />The section is towards the end of the rules. Let me know here or on the group.<br /><br />Cheers, Keith.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-16359953266811777452014-02-23T16:28:06.901+00:002014-02-23T16:28:06.901+00:00I fully agree with your review which pretty well s...I fully agree with your review which pretty well sums up why I have not really enjoyed the recent Grant series of 'Wargaming in History.' Different 18th century armies had different inherent capabilities which need to be represented in any viable wargames system. The key attributes for the Seven Years war are (in my opinion): rate of fire, rapidity of manoeuvre (average march pace, means and ease of changing formation), level of training (especially for cavalry - keeping in order during a charge, ease of recall), command structures and morale. Even a superficial reading of the works of Duffy & Nosworthy show there is a great deal of difference to be exploited.<br /><br />I play a much customised version of Napoleon's Battles which I have re-written through much trial and error for Linear Tactics and the Seven Years War. This also works for ground-scales (I play using the 18mm Eureka range at approximately 1:100 - Brigade Scale). I really don't see how playing at a larger scale (20mm +) can allow for realistic deployments (which is of course why the Grant battles look so impossibly crowded).<br /><br />All the Best - Enjoying your Blog,<br />KevinKC MacDonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17132564550526101023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-45468622848807268442014-02-04T15:50:35.220+00:002014-02-04T15:50:35.220+00:00A very interesting discussion. I came to SYW gami...A very interesting discussion. I came to SYW gaming post Charles Grant, via gamers immersed in WRG-style systems, so the Grant approach is a bit foreign to me but I can see its appeal.<br />I am just experimenting with Sam Mustafa's Maurice rules, and think there might be some similarities between Maurice and the Grant approach, in that the units in Maurice have a somewhat generic feel to them. I gather there are national characteristics rules to similar army quality which I haven't explored yet and maybe that will capture some of the qualitative differences in units and leadership that you describe here. At any rate, that Grant SYW book looks like a must have, thanks for telling me about it.<br />Cheers,<br />MPMad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-88192805840669829272014-02-02T12:12:15.319+00:002014-02-02T12:12:15.319+00:00Archduke - you're quite right, whatever logica...Archduke - you're quite right, whatever logical arguments one wants to use, it often comes down to personal taste.<br /><br />When I try larger, real battles, I of course do what you all suggest - one battalion represents 3 or 5 or whatever real battalions. But in true old school fashion, that one battalion still fights as a single battalion, i.e. using the rules as if it was a single battalion. <br /><br />To put it another way: one rule of thumb I always use is that effective musket range should be about the same as the frontage of an infantry battalion in line - around 200 yards. But if a battalion represents a brigade, should musket range go down by a third or a quarter, because that model battalion is representing the frontage of 3 or 4 actual battalions? My answer is the old school one of no - the rules work the same, but your imagination provides the link between that single battalion of models and the brigade or so it is pretending to be. If the battle looks and feels right, just go with it. This is very much the approach of Mr Grant, so we are not really so far apart.<br /><br />Hope that makes sense.Keith Flinthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12903769462646267048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-60056261180582088972014-02-02T09:42:29.223+00:002014-02-02T09:42:29.223+00:00I too love this series of books and I do have some...I too love this series of books and I do have some "imagination" big battalions. I also have 15mm and 6mm based for VnB. <br /><br />I think Brig Grant uses historical battles as scenarios for his own rule set - and nothing wrong with that, they are the best series of wargaming books IMO. The history and OOBs are very useful.<br /><br />For more "historical" recreation wargames then more command and control and national characteristics may be necessary.<br /><br />Not always as much fun however.<br /><br /><br /><br /> Prince Lupushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13205758324137548941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-12115814109687470992014-02-02T04:48:38.389+00:002014-02-02T04:48:38.389+00:00Keith is correct to note that scaling historical b...Keith is correct to note that scaling historical battles to the larger type of battalion does present difficulties, not so much in terms of scaling down the formations (a battalion can stand for a brigade, after all) but in terms of ground scale as Gozza observes. With the sort of scaling involved, suddenly your musketry and gunnery ranges are in effect doubled, tripled, quadrupled even. Is that realistic?<br /><br />I am not 100% persuaded it is 'unrealistic' (by which I mean 'lacks verisimilitude') for a number of reasons (though many would not find these reasons persuasive, I dare say!). But leaving those aside, it seems to me no difficulty to bring the ranges down in proportion, and probably even simplifying down the entire combat mechanics anyway.<br /><br />To my mind, the 'Army Level' game brings forth its own problems, but, as I mention in my previous comment, a lot of people have no problem with these. I use 'Army Level' rule sets myself. <br />Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-86122682433693573862014-02-02T00:02:48.733+00:002014-02-02T00:02:48.733+00:00A 15mm 48 figure battalion (600 men) based 2x4 fig...A 15mm 48 figure battalion (600 men) based 2x4 figures with a 20mm (3/4")frontage per base has a battalion at a 24cm (9.4")frontage.<br />That is a scale of 1.8m to the kilometre or 117" to the mile.<br /><br /> In order to field just the Russian defensive position at Kunersdorf you would require 6 metres or table space alone! The table required for Kunersdorf (6 km x 4 km) is 10.8m x 7.2m (11.8 x 7.8yds).<br />Remember this is at 15mm scale double the sizes for 28mm figures.<br /><br />The frontage of your unit dictates the scale. Large battalions of figures whilst looking great are totally impractical for fighting battles any larger than Brigade level, five or six battalions a side.<br /><br />The practical answer is to have a unit to represent a brigade of 4-6 battalions. The table size would be reduced to a practical 2.7 x 1.8m.<br /><br />Col Bill Gray's SYW rules variant for Age of Eagles would be a good<br />compromise.<br /><br />Gozzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03421070756951755992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-25125090139883703432014-02-01T22:44:47.779+00:002014-02-01T22:44:47.779+00:00Good review... very interesting... I remember the...Good review... very interesting... I remember the "discussions" about national differences raging back in the 70's... my personal view is that they should be represented, but accept Ions view that they shouldn't make them a caricature, and that a-historical tactics should be penalised...Steve-the-Wargamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077311120172727690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1430463007570237159.post-11810398056305019832014-02-01T22:05:36.623+00:002014-02-01T22:05:36.623+00:00A worthwhile review, Keith. Personally, I am of t...A worthwhile review, Keith. Personally, I am of the old clunky war gaming school, my own games and rule sets being very similar (because based upon) the Charles Grant set.<br /><br />Many of your caveats I regard as recommendations, but either way it is not only a matter of opinion but also of taste. Although personally I've never cottoned to V-n-B, it is very popular in this part of the world.<br /><br />One matter you raise I found of considerable interest: the apparent reluctance of the authors to differentiate qualitatively between armies. I can appreciate why - both ways! I find this area very difficult to do well - such differentiation can be exaggerated beyond history, to the point of driving certain armies off the war games table. <br /><br />That the Prussians won at Torgau was due to Zieten's seizing the initiative and striking at a sensitive point when the battle seemed over, coinciding with loss of leadership in the Austrian Army at the crucial moment as evening was drawing in. Until then, the Austrians had been holding off the Prussian army without much difficulty at all. Bear in mind even after their defeat, and having lost 6000 prisoners, Prussian losses exceeded the Austrian. I tend to think of Torgau as two battles on the same day: the Austrians winning the first, but taken by surprise and hit in the flank in the second.<br /><br />Perhaps one ought to differentiate between quality of leadership, as many rule sets do. King Frederick was very ably seconded by his subordinates, Zieten, Seidlitz, Prince Henry and others. The Austrians had plenty of talent, too, but saddled themselves with the incompetence of Prince Charles of Lorraine, and the over-caution of Graf Daun.<br /><br />By the way, I have been told that in later editions of the War Game, there is included a chapter on 'scaling it down'. Apparently it gives advice on how the rule set can be adapted to 12-figure units, for example. This chapter doesn't appear on my own edition, unfortunately. Having said that, the Charles Grant type of rule set can handle not only much smaller units that his standard 5+48, but also variably sized units as well. <br /><br />Although our views and tastes differ, I do enjoy your Blog.<br />Cheers,<br />IonArchduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.com